Video Roundtable: The Future of Hybrid Cloud

hi I'm James Maguire editor of data mission and our topic today is the future of cloud computing the future of hybrid cloud computing to talk about that we've got three great experts where this is Joe weinman IT consultant and the author of cloud I nomics hello to you Joe hey there uh Claire anomic so what is Claude Atomics about it in a nutshell it's about the economics of the cloud you know I was kind of thinking that gel it's all the is about cost optimization and performance engineering and it's everything from how much latency gets reduced by increasing the number of service nodes to things like why hybrid clouds would be cost optimal under the right parameters such as workload variability and the appropriate difference and do-it-yourself cost versus public provider cost and performance differentials and things like that cool also with us is bernard golden author of amazon web services for dummies loader you Bernard hey how are you good no you're also a CEO of navigon which is your own consulting outfit correct that's right okay so it sounds like you're you're keeping yourself busy and I know you're in you're involved with the blockchain as well correct yeah blockchain I think is you know sort of my career over the last 15 years has been built on to sort of epiphanies one the first was I got exposed to open source I said that's going to change the way people consume software the second was I got exposed to cloud computing I said that's going to change the way people consume infrastructure and look at a blockchain I think it has real potential to change a lot of business operational constructs sort of the it'll be the next platform for financial transactions okay also where this is Dana Gardner principal analyst at Inter Arbor solutions and overall tech guru purrs and blow to you Dana hello James great to be with you again at dinner what's to the pradas be working on today in the world of IT um you know you broke up I didn't hear the first part equation what sort of products are keeping you busy in the tech world these days sunny of a podcast talking to a lot of customers doing a lot of customer interviews and trying to find out what they're actually doing rather than maybe telling them what they should do or expect him to do certain things so a lot of on-the-ground research right now it's really interesting there's a lot going on in analysis and big data that relate to IT and cloud not just for the way that you would put analytics into clouds and also how you would analyze what you do as a business and perhaps you start analyzing what options in the cloud makes sense right so James can I make a suggestion please sensitive hybrid cloud why don't we address topic like online video collaboration tool issues is it the network or cloud servers that are to blame bet bet is that is a fantastic topic I maybe we can work about it I see a lot of possibility there what's that you broke up a little bit III think it's a Joe is that could be troll ok he's I think he's doing what's called trolling me that's it I've heard about that term on the internet they call that trolling it's either droll or troll for sure yeah so hybrid cloud computing I think that thing about hybrid cloud is I've always thought but it's going to be this dominant model going forward but there's certainly disagreement about that because there are there are some of us and I'm looking at you mr. golden who say that the private cloud is going to die a long slow death and so without private cloud you can't really a hybrid cloud so I guess the core foundational question is is hybrid cloud going to be the dominant model in the years the hatch it should we be talking about this topic or are we dinosaurs to be talking about it Bernard is is hybrid cloud going to be real and you know or is this kind of a fake idea well I mean you know people start talking about hybrid cloud then they go well there's good a lot of infrastructure on premise and that's not going to go away overnight which is quite clear I think likely to see on going on premise infrastructure bring yours for the foreseeable future well question is what what will be the nature of that infrastructure and what proportion of the overall infrastructure use of an organization will it be I think it's unlikely it's going to be private because those have been very very challenging very difficult for most organizations to put together as a sort of comment to that I think at least my view is that the decline in the amount of on-premise infrastructure as a proportion of the overall infrastructure use of the average enterprise is going to is going to decline more swiftly than most people um into it but if but if we define a cloud of virtualized computing environment with automation I mean that is not going to be commonplace well it'll for sure it'll be a virtualized because that's a very large proportion of overall infrastructure although not the totality I guess but a very large proportion the question is when you sort of say that in automation what does that really mean because there are people who say automation is there's an email system where you can email a a VMware administrator who will spin up a virtual machine for you sometime over the next couple of weeks all the way to people who say for automation you really need to have you know very very sophisticated kinds of stuff and there's this big sort of smudgy and ambiguity about it that really affects what you claim as your on-premise stuff how come capable that is so I want to make sure I'm a slow learner do I get your vote hybrid will be dominant hybrid will fade away well I you know I think that there's gonna be on premise infrastructure no question okay and most organizations will be managing some mix of on-premise infrastructure and use of public cloud where I sort of veer off for a lot of people is I don't say that oh if you've got on-premise infrastructure that means you've got hybrid cloud and there's this kind of good there's a whole set of four corollaries from that right Danny what you take are you a believer that all cloud will be hybrid cloud in the future well I don't know about the words dominant and all but I certainly think that hybrid is a very beneficial model what you want to do is take advantage of all your options that's been the case throughout technology whether your cloud are on Prem you're not just going to use unix you windows make sense you're going to use Windows servers you're not just going to use one tool said you're going to use the right technology for the right purpose at the best cost so i also think though that hybrid is not just a divide between private and public i think it's a divide between multiple public and maybe other flavors of managed service provider services for things like data sovereignty purposes or just backup and recovery or fault tolerant benefits I think we'll see some more specialization of services that give us a more a wider waterfront of cloud services to choose from and you'll want to have a hybrid capability to move on a bit among in between and use the right tool at the right time at the right price yeah I speaking of the other multiple public clouds I was at a Google press conference about a year ago and Google was trotting out all their public cloud or a few choice public cloud customers and over the course of the press conference it became obvious and some of the some of Google's public cloud customers were using for some of their workload other other public cloud providers so I mean a hybrid cloud could be actually you know multiple public cloud providers conceivably be you know define that way Joe what's your take on hybrid cloud is it is it the the dominant model of the future so I think there are a few points to make just to kind of cover some of the set so I everyone has their own definitions but I would differentiate between hybrid cloud multi-cloud and intercloud and the way I think about it is a hybrid cloud is a combination of on-premises dedicated infrastructure and by on-premises we could include dedicated owned infrastructure in a colocation facility coupled with on-demand pay per use public resources and the whole idea is that it's coupled as opposed to I happen to have two things right in other words the fact that I you know have a pair of swim trunks and I have a tuxedo jacket you know doesn't make it a hybrid that's just a collection of random things so there's some presume way of creating a uniform hybrid out of both of those components which I've explored a variety of different architectures one of which is a relatively monolithic one where I'm running the same application on the same sort of virtual infrastructure and I can migrate instances of that application to or from the cloud and some of the data issues get taken care of multi-cloud can be more of a random collection right so if I use Salesforce for crm and zenefits for HR and happen to have let's say Google Docs they may or may not have any relationship with each other and so that's not a true hybrid that's more of a multiple cloud or multi-cloud and I think you know that is almost a given and then intercloud when I led the intercloud testbed effort the idea there was it was really more service provider to service provider infrastructure that was sort of behind the scenes things like signaling system 7 is for telcos so all that said i don't think that private on-premises infrastructure will ever go away and i just did a piece that looks at what some of the thought leaders are doing so if you look at you know some company that's been around let's say 400 years and you say well they're not sure about the cloud but those companies that are with it like Netflix and Google and so forth all use the cloud you know you could come to conclusion that the public cloud is the only way to go but actually if you look more closely at those leading companies they're all over the map so Netflix is always drag dad is the poster child for public cloud adoption the fact of the matter is that they have a dedicated owned appliance Netflix open connect which sits in multiple colocation facilities that's their own infrastructure that does all the heavy lifting for Netflix video streaming and what they use the public cloud for is a variety of other things such as transcoding and running the recommendation engine and so forth then there are no keys that private cloud user actually i'm sorry mr. you say netflix which which is the poster boy for public cloud is actually a really large user a private cloud they are a relatively large user of private owned infrastructure whether or not you would call it cloud or not as hard as the content delivery appliance um and in their DVD business they're a great example of legacy infrastructure that isn't growing doesn't have a lot of variability and it doesn't really there's no compelling reason to migrate it to the cloud so you've got legacy infrastructure that isn't even private cloud you've got private cloud and you've got public cloud now all that said like I love the public cloud it's got in these cases that are great and to keep things short and simple those use cases include when I have a lot of variability when I don't need custom performance engineered infrastructure and when I've got a attractive relative cost between owned infrastructure in the cloud now you know for a small/medium business that doesn't have the competence doesn't have the IT resources doesn't have you know the even the basic ability or you know cycles of management attention to do their own infrastructure then of course the public cloud makes sense I can't imagine you know pizzeria say building a data center right behind the pizza oven so that they can cut paychecks for their employees right so there's a great use case on the other hand you've got some very tech-savvy companies that either have never gone to the cloud and don't intend to like Evernote which according to their own calculations it would cost three to four times as much to go public and those that have come out of the cloud based on both relative cost and performance optimization opportunities like Dropbox so you know what it comes down to is both types of infrastructure are going to continue to exist to Bernard point and then the question becomes how does a company do things effectively and there it isn't clear that you know even private cloud infrastructure is fully ready for prime time but remember when people said the same thing about public glad they were like well it's good for doing some startup test dev kinds of things but it isn't really ready for you know true enterprise initiatives and now it is so if you fast-forward to a few years and you exploit the ability of some new technologies like containers to aid with migration I just see a world where the same as people you know live in homes and they stay in hotels and they own cars but rent cars they're going to want to have true flexibility like Dana mentioned to be able to select from any of multiple environments that best need their best meet their requirements at any given time so I think that's not just a temporary moment in history but the ultimate end state what about the idea of business continuity is the best your recovery it seems like hybrid cloud would be you know custom-made for that kind of thing because in theory you could mirror part or were a big chunk of your of your power remotely Danny we talked about this i think with some airline outages that may have related to this is is is hybrid cloud a peace of mind for disaster recovery well i think it's it's an option that should be fully exploring utilized so if you are in a business like an airline with a reservation system and other apps that are essential to your business uh if you don't i find every means to keep those apps up and running including redundancy in multiple datacenters ability to mirror and move apps rapidly quickly you're not really doing the job you're not you're not fulfilling your KPIs as a IT organization to the larger business so it these tools are out there and used all the time people are mirroring data centers entire data centers their large datasets certainly specific apps so why you know we don't know all the details of these specific outages but why somebody wouldn't take managed of a cloud portfolio as best they can for us specifically of these types of use you know these cases mrs. continuity that's to recovery and so forth that it doesn't make any sense to me not to do that what would you say before if one of your clients talk to you about hybrid cloud and business continuity and disaster recovery is that still do you go oh yeah that's a it's that you want this two-part solution or not necessarily cloud computing I think it's a really great model for that you know it's a sort of echo what Dana said it's not like disaster recovery is something that somebody only thought of when cloud computing came along it's been established for many many years and you know and in terms of one of the big challenges for organizations has always been you know it's so expensive to have a second site or the capability of having sector site so that's big reason why they don't do it then there's the operational stuff you have to have processes in place to do failover and so forth so on which are not trivial but all those things are well known and well established so it's not like somebody's inventing it today um cloud computing can help you with the first of those problems it can provide a place where you can spin up a second environment where you don't have to have so much spend you know I mean the challenge has always been sort of i buy one and then I have to buy another one and i never use it i'm spending a lot of money oh well we'll cut back on them cloud computing doesn't necessarily solve the second problem which is i have to have my operational processes I have to do backups I have to know how to do the failover I have to have that but it provides the ability to do that more easily the the the latest airline thing with the Delta stuff that was I would hate to be that CIO and that head of infrastructure because there is no excuse for an inner for a you know an enjoyment corporation like a delta not to have a disaster recovery system in place and you can give us a lot good health I'm like Bernard if you for those who did not know the detail is there a nutshell you can give up what happened with that situation well I think what I read was that basically their days enter went down and that meant nobody could do anything electronically which is you know a single point of failure I mean yeah there was there was a fire allegedly in the data center that may or may not have been caused by the power company the Delta says it was the power utility and the power utility says we've have no problems and all our other customers are fine so okay I strike yeah what about ups I mean that doesn't make sense to be even in a single datacenter you wouldn't have a single point of failure at a power issue you'd always have ever done it super powers so moment we're done this day hopefully yeah so uh James to go back to your question I think that there are a few different scenarios that certainly makes sense now I'm not sure whether taking a snapshot and story in the cloud would be kind of a you know the industrial-strength hybrid that we've been sort of talking about but it is certainly a hybrid of sorts and to Bernards point the idea that you know if you go back to the i did bc dr a long time ago and the strategy was you know you'd store your data on tape you move the tape physically off-site with a truck into some sort of secure possibly underground protected facility and then you'd hope that you know you could recover and you did testing every once in a while that was great so then from there that evolved to the idea of a hot site / sister site where basically it's the idea that you know i have a car and because i need to get to work just in case my car at gets a flat tire i'm going to have an exactly identical car that i never use sitting in the driveway right next to it not to mention all the you know network that would be required to synchronize the facilities that's a very costly strategy obviously so with cloud i think you know people that are really strict pure public cloud advocates would say look the cloud is arguably inherently reliable between availability zones and inter-regional failover capabilities and that's mostly true and there are some questions around pricing for I'm inter availability zone data transfers and things like that but you know you could argue that the cloud is relatively secure and by the way if you wanted true security you would go multi-cloud and so you have a number of providers like Apple allegedly reportedly has been rumored to use as your AWS and Google and it's partly in the event of a you know a single cloud going down which has been known to happen and all the major cloud providers have had outages of bearing durations then I can recover and continue operations another cloud what about last scenario where i have my own data were you going to make a point yeah quickly just having multiple clouds is not just for performance and reliability and fault tolerance is also for economics you want to have multiple sources you want to play them off of each other you want to negotiate on a contract with the basis to pull out of that contract if you need to you've always wanted have multiple sources when you're buying technology whether it's on Prem a service SAS cloud if I'm a CIO I'm definitely going to have multiple public clouds its customers right yeah and to that point main actually things like the universal cloud exchange or beginning to create real markets for that exact ability to be able to see different resources and be able to select from among them based on your own exact requirements and dynamic pricing what about the this is slowly off on a tangent but it's kind of reminded of this V and Bernard you might need more about this I'm not sure being the AWS person that you are that the CIA building a private cloud and contracting with AWS for that uh-huh is that is that up and running is that may be the most famous hybrid cloud in the world you know it and used with with AWS the boys love that you're anything about what's going on is that just up and running and doing fine as far as we know it is as far as I'm pretty sure it's up and running in four sources say right you've talked to Edward Snowden recently he would probably know I don't know someone but now yeah yeah it's a so i think it is up and running um the the feedback I've heard is that up and running but the people to see I air frustrated because it doesn't have all the latest and greatest that the rest of amazon has their kind of like well I'd like really like take advantage of this other service so there's some chafing around that but I think it's up and running what do you think that latest and greatest issue is why would the Central Intelligence edge they have the latest and greatest well I mean the thing about these kinds of services these these huge cloud providers are offering is they're not trivial to install and configure and operate and all that I mean it's not like a you know i'm going to download a zip file and you know and and double click on it and i've got this thing up running a lot of complexity around it and so for amazon and it would be true if it was google or edger to transfer one of these new technology one of these new service offerings into an environment there's a whole lot of planning a lot of capacity lot many many complicated things putting into it so i think it's probably you know the CIA bought a certain amount of infrastructure and if they said oh well now we want to run lambda in it'd be like well now we need you know another you know i didn't know however much or whatever might be a lot there's a lot of complexity associated with them that i think people don't really understand it's kind of like if you use netflix or you know any of these big services you know you just go i click on the button and it happens it's magic there's a lot of stuff that a company like netflix has to achieve to deliver that reliably and I that's I I would assume that that's sort of thing going on around getting access to these additional services within the CIA private cloud what about the idea and Joe I think you would talk about this but what does hybrid cloud made for provider strategy I guess hybrid cloud provider strategy and then customer choice I mean in theory prepsters there's more contract bidding going on in a multi cloud situation now how does hybrid cloud play into that so I think there are a few different dimensions one thing is it depends on what your worldview is right so if you did have this worldview that said the public cloud is the ultimate end state all every user from you know an individual to the largest fortune 100 enterprises will end up there very soon then the correct provider strategy would be to focus all your resources on pure public as some companies say that start with a G or an A have done on the other hand if your review of the ultimate end state is in fact hybrid then you would want to be able to have a strategy that said look we've got the best public cloud and we've got the best private cloud and by the way we provide all the orchestration migration data synchronization etc etc tools that are required to make it work seamlessly and effortlessly together with you no cost and performance optimization built in and a you know policy-based orchestration engine and this that and the other thing and you know I do have to say that to me if you think that hybrid is the correct strategy than among the big players as you or would seem to be in the best position and if you didn't think that and you thought that public was the right way to go then Google and AWS would seem to be right I know you know and I'm not as smart as the people that work for those companies but again I've done all the analysis both in terms of the raw economics of cloud infrastructure all the elements that make things up additional costs that are required one way or another whether it's contract administration or dealing with your own acquisition and it just works out that for larger companies that have relatively flat demand and the wherewithal to do it then having your own infrastructure is a perfectly good option and for those that don't then public is a perfectly good option and I just don't understand why a company wouldn't want to capture all of the revenue from both those business models and a good example outside of the cloud context that comes to mind which I wrote about in cloud anomic a few years ago is starbucks starbucks was in the coffee as a service model right they opened coffee data centers all over the place on every street corner and you could get your coffee as a service then they realize that people then just want the service they wanted the actual product within that service which is starbucks branded roasted coffee beans and so they started selling it as a private cloud you can walk into any costco or grocery store and buy starbucks bag and it's a do-it-yourself you need your own operations personnel de you know put the grounds and make in your own private infrastructure namely your coffee maker but guess what you get coffee just the same and you know it's at a lower cost than buying it at five dollars for you know five cents worth of grounds as a service so so what am I guess what is a provider they I'm sorry as a provider what they realized is hey we're leaving money on the table let's sell it both ways we're not going to shutter our restaurants but we can make money both for do-it-yourself customers and as a service customers and why don't we want all the revenue it in the interest of time are we going to estimate about yeah I just um think that there's been a shift in the way I T is procured that is is pretty important and hybrid cloud and cloud have accelerated that or even created the inflection point and the difference is between IT being an internal provider to an organization shifting into IT being just part of another supply chain another supply chain management issue so cloud in all its permutations SAS microservices backup and recovery services this is now part of a supply chain that interview every organization needs to then look at and they need to treat that supply chain link they've been treating other parts of their supply chain the same way looking at risk looking at dependability looking at cost so whether this is going to be a multi cloud hybrid inter-class out increasingly it's going to become more granular I think down to services containers help that ap is a very prominent what you need to think about those an organization is how do I manage my supply chain for getting IT services that the best price and the performance that I require so that kind of thinking of going from IT as a unit that's fully supported internally through cost and management and operations to IT as services that i procure and the supply chain a type of benefit and thought and cost-benefit analysis needs to bear that's that's what many companies are going through right now so James tell me if I can jump in it that's a really interesting perspective Dana so in in the help help me understand more about that or who would be the procure you said you need to look at so would that be some part of IT would look at another part of IT so like an application group would look at I you know at the on-premise stuff as vs amazon ixora go I'm gonna make an assessment of you you're part of my swatching or would that be a business unit looking at I T is the central organization saying you know I'm going to I'm going to evaluate you and what you can deliver versus what I can get from Salesforce or whoever would be your help I mean I'm really interested in that yes that's right now i T is being asked to be the IT procurement supply chain management function in addition to being traditional IT providing one source of IT to the company but as we know it's always been multiple sources they've been systems integrators right from the get-go you've had multiple sources and IT is often asked to be the integrator and or to hire integrators so I t is sort of used to playing both sides but I think over time as these become more standardized and become automated that it will become a business function and this will elevate to the back office type of functions at a supply chain management function involves and that yes that we specialized for IT perhaps but I do think it's ultimately a supply chain type of mentality rather than IT provides to the organization so if I could jump in to James cognizant I'm just that perspective if you think about the evolution of what's happened we see decreasing time intervals right so in the old days you had a monolithic application that you were building and it was millions of lines of code and you spent years on it to figure out exactly what the optimal infrastructure would be and you you know had the dog and pony shows from all of the hardware vendors then they came in and years later you actually built and deployed and maybe it even worked you know fast forward earthen you've moved to you know smaller and smaller increments of capacity and smaller and smaller increments of time and so it's pretty clear that the ultimate end state then becomes you know it isn't just you're figuring out a particular cloud provider and or selecting infrastructure resources based on that but if you have micro services and lambda functions why wouldn't you go to real-time bidding for a particular service like if you need to process payment for a credit card and you can get it at you know point zero three cents from a particular provider versus point O 31 cents from a different one as long as they're authorized certified approved etc then it's all good and maybe a good way to think about the role function in line with the question that Bernard was asking is it's sort of the evolution from I'm not sure that this actually would be historically accurate but from company's having their own private jet to having a corporate travel dept to going with a third party that acts as a broker like concur that then is basically saying look if here's your need right now you want to fly from you know Newark to Dallas then we recommend these three flights and you know ultimately that happens as part of a real-time bidding process as we're already seeing things like online ad sales and that's a good analogy and you might still have your own corporate jet you might still have charters you might still use commercial airlines but you're going to look at all of them from a supply chain perspective and you're going to get the right airline service for the right use at the right price and you know it's also interesting with IT because it's becoming so complex and as it gets more granular down to the service level the API level it's going to become more complex we're talking about making decisions about security privacy performance KPIs costs a data freedom data sovereignty privacy regulations which might be different in the EU than they are in north america in the united states so many variables come to play that you can only think of an algorithmic approach may be multiple algorithms being brought to bear on the decision about what IT service gets used I can even very quickly for see where machine learning bots and AI come to bear and there might even be this new word we could conjure up it's sort of bot ops you're thinking about how do I back your ops through all the best tools at my disposal which could probably be artificial intelligence machine learning cognizant services but keep your eye on pot ops and maybe you may be heard it here first because I think that's where we're headed that's great I love that term I love the chair and bottles for sure speaking of bots ops or just wonderfully futuristic let's let's take just a moment and look to the future like 20 25 20 23 wolves what does cloud infrastructure going to look like in the year 20 23 or thereabouts-- mr. golden what's your take on that I'll defer to to my appt fedco fellow panelists and and hear what they have to say and then I'll oh you'll break at home okay I like that Joe what do you tell you the Year 2023 or what is clogged gonna look like assuming the machines let us live after they take over right uh robot overlords will let us live we hope you know I think that you'll just continue see this heterogeneity continue to evolve and I think also that you'll see some companies that were late to the bandwagon get on and others that were early to the bandwagon get off because I just don't fully understand some of the decision-making that exists I don't want to pick on any companies but you know we were talking about Delta earlier like it's hard to believe that they didn't have some sort of backup failover strategy that leverages the cloud and you know maybe in their defense one of the issues as far as making that easy is you know I assume that they have spent 50 years you know this is all hypothesis on my part but I assume that they've spent 50 years building this complicated infrastructure that just very difficult to unwind right it wasn't built with modern precepts development paradigms etc and mine and so you've got the reservation system which is a billion lines of code that ties into some operation system that's flight scheduling and crew scheduling and it's all a mess that it's probably more of a wonder that it actually ever works you know when you think about how hard it is to build a large scale system like that then that it went down after working for so long so that's kind of one way to look at it perhaps so in any event you know I think that you're going to see greater ease of use and finer granularity and obviously the move to microservices you know you've seen this evolution from you know mainframes to Minnie's to personal computers to virtual machines to containers to micro services and you know I think it's going to be pretty hard to get like lines of code as a service although who knows so microservices seems to be about the right level of minimum granularity and I really liked Dana's idea of bod ops as that you have policy based orchestration you have something like you know we just heard that Google has been applying deepmind artificial intelligence technology for data center operations and you can certainly picture an increased level of automation so there are companies like a BB with what they're doing with the evolution from data center infrastructure management data center services optimization you've got companies like TSO logic and vigilant that have various levels of automation you see what Google is just done and so you know having all of that under the control of intelligent optimizers that are trying to solve the multi criteria optimization problem of optimal user experience optimal reliability doing it all at optimal cost and being able to handle unexpected events like data center outages and so forth you know all that just makes sense and then you know the counter trend is you know no company likes complexity and rightly so so the idea of having you know a million possible vendors for a particular service doesn't really make any sense and then you've got the famous Dave McCrory meme around data gravity which you know just says it doesn't help that you can save a nickel on a hotel room if it you know you've gotta move your entire household across the country to take advantage of that so it isn't just cost optimization you also have data migration costs and user experience issues so for that reason you're probably going to see more stability so it just seems like there's this never-ending dilemma right where you know there's just no good solution you want to have flexibility but you also want stability you're your look your take on the the future of hybrid cloud computers of the Year 2023 what is it going to look like what we're talking about this in seven or eight years right well I'm sure I'll be on a beach or on a link side looking at that from a far distant view with not nothing but I tired Tahiti I hope yeah exactly but seven years this is not that long and so right you know the hold the old adage that things would happen as fast as you expect what they'll happen more impactful II I think will be the case here the current way that companies do i.t is not sustainable and whether its security the pushes amor the edge outages like we saw it Southwest put them over the edge the fact that the costs are too high is a cap as a portion of their capital expense for IT for some reason right now that I'm going to start looking for some alternatives and we've seen them do that with SAS very rapidly we're certainly seem to do that with public cloud and so as you look at those alternatives to the status quo you're going to have to refactor not just a technology but the ops the process the culture i T is not an island I T is not a department you go to IT is a fabric within the company attaining and getting IT is just like attaining and getting any other service in the business it goes through supply chain it goes through business metrics and processes quality control and so forth and and then the big suppliers of IT will have to respond to that and they'll have to provide IT in a fashion that's highly automated and highly understood not in terms of the technology under the hood but in how to acquire use measure and optimize so I do think that our AI is a perfect opportunity to take computing and apply it to the problem of computing and attaining the right services at the right fit the right price would be a great use case and the computer makers it be fools not to try to do that you might think that um amazon or microsoft azure wouldn't want to do that because they lose their their possible lock in or you know the dominance so a third party will crop up and they'll say you know use all those other public clouds and we'll help you manage it using our algorithms and so there's a great market opportunity could drive a truck through we expect those companies and miss the public cloud opportunity to probably be in a good place to do that what what personally is the market opportunity to make sure I'm defined on the one to come up with the means to manage through algorithmic intelligence the right mix of various cloud services to support your apps your data your business process like a cloud exchange right well I don't think I call it a cloud exchange I get more granular but yeah you'd pick and choose among like a marketplace just like people probably buy and choose commodities whether it's copper or sugar or coffee beans right i mean it's not just one supplier and it's it's it's a big fat computer somewhere that's that's managing those commodity exchanges and so we need to bring a computer to manage the computer services interesting uh Bernard you and your take on the future and what do you see in a distant hazy future well the seven or eight year time frame I would say that probably fifty percent of all corporate workloads are gonna be running in public cloud and that's going to be an ongoing trend and on-premise is going to be a declining proportion of the overall overall application portfolio or total infrastructure use and there's gonna be a lot of bumpy stuff on the and of that amount that shifts out of on-premise stuff a very large proportion of it will go to SAS some proportion of it will be rewritten um you know she chose point I mean the thing about this Delta thing is they've probably got this enormous hairball and you know just saying well I want to move that out of my own data center to somebody else's because you know amazon more reliable in my stuff that's a nightmare but it's such a core thing to the way they were in their business if they really wanted to do that they would have to rewrite the entire thing right oh so they'll do that but there's lots of stuff they've got that probably has been home grown or some package they've got that they're responsive or they'll go let's go hive that off and put that into let's find our SAS provider for it and and I think that'll be the dynamic you know is this something we really have to run ourselves okay that's going to say on-premise okay this isn't something we really have to run ourselves can we migrate it to a public cloud or is this something that we can move to SAS there's gonna be an ongoing dynamic within IT organizations to sort of optimize their focus because as Dana said kind of the current path is unsustainable right you know it's kind of like you know there's just they're going to run out of the ability to do that I you know amazing and hopefully we will be running to see it and go hey we were right or wrong about that I date a walled he's gonna be a lion Ellen I somewhere I we're all jealous of data really i think we shall do we were ill about it but I expected to happen anyway we should all gather for that conversation at Dana's lanai I just checked my calendar and I am free that day gentlemen thank you very much brief appearance the beer not said I'm so rad well I want it I want to nibble in the beer nuts I will send you guys to link we can all tweet about it I thank you very much i think i've learned something thank you very much thank you well thank you the invitation all right bye-bye years

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